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92 Ford inline 6 industrial engine has no spark to plugs

 
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darren68 darren68
New User | Posts: 26 | Joined: 11/11
Posted: 09/22/12
01:56 PM

1992 Ford industrial engine has no spark to plugs. there is current from coil to distributer cap. It is an inline 6 118 hp engine.  
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waynep71222 waynep71222
Guru | Posts: 825 | Joined: 03/12
Posted: 09/22/12
02:31 PM

since its an industrial engine..  it could have several different distributers..


it could have a duraspark II distributer with 3 wires coming out..     black , orange and violet... with a remount mounted square ignition module... that has a blue strain relief riveted to the flange where the wires come out...


it could have a TFI distributer with a six wire push in connector on the end of a grey plastic box mounted to the side of the distributer housing...

it could have a remote mounted TFI distributer... with a TFI module mounted in a heat sink box somewhere close by....

there is also a chance that it could have a 3 pointed star on the back of the harmonic damper... with a crank trigger on the timing cover and a roundish 6 pin connector coming out of the distributer..

what i would like for you do to first...   before any other diagnostics...  take the distributer cap off so you can see the ignition rotor...   make sure that nothing can catch in the rotor when it spins...    look in at the rotor and crank the engine...  does the rotor turn????

probably not...   if it turns then you have an ignition problem.. if the rotor does not turn... you probably have a broken/stripped cam gear ... not totally unheard of on a ford 300..  i have had to do several...   it does take some tools...


post what you find...  i log on here a few times a day....

i am hoping that its an ignition problem..  as that is a LOT easier to fix...  sometimes..  

waynep71222 waynep71222
Guru | Posts: 825 | Joined: 03/12
Posted: 09/22/12
04:15 PM

i just got finished replacing a timing gear set on a 96 300 six ford in an E250..

the engine died on the highway.. rotor stopped turning..

no compression..

pulled radiator cooling fan and shroud..

pulled belt...

use big screw driver through the cover i removed from the front of the transmission while i used a socket on a breaker bar to loosen the crank bolt....

used a harmonic damper puller set with the center bolt shortened.. then the sides flatted.. to allow me to use an adjustable wrench on it...

got the damper off..   please examine the rubber sleeve between the inner and outer.. if its torn.. you will need to replace it... they do fail... if you have a crank trigger ignition system.. use care to NOT DAMAGE the star wheel on the back.. and you will need to really search out the proper damper.. the one for the crank trigger ignition actually has six holes drilled and tapped..

drained the engine oil... dropped the pan.. it does not have to come all the way out..  its probably got a rubber gasket...  

pull the crank trigger.. and the cover..  to find the broken gear teeth..

wedge some rags across the front of the dropped oil pan opening.. so you don't scatter any more parts into the pan.. you still have to reach in and clean the pan out completely... reaching in from the front...  reaching in from the sides...  must get the broken gear teeth out..

you will need to BREAK the fiberglass gear off the steel hub...  you can drill and split it...   try not to hammer on it hard.. you don't want to screw anything else up...

once you get the plastic parts off.. you will need to get a bearing splitter and clamp it on tight..  then look in your balancer bolt tray to find some bolts that will allow you to fasten the pulling bar TIGHT against the front of the bearing splitter..   failure to clamp it tight against the bearing splitter will result in a lot of grief...







i dropped the hardened flat washers across the small swivel tip of the push bolt... so it does not grind into the end of the cam...


the crank sprocket can come off before or after.. you get the cam sprocket...

please... use something that when you are pulling the cam sprocket hub.. that you don't dent or damage any of the gear teeth...

many parts stores have cloyes timing sets.. with a replacement fiberglass cam sprocket..

but there are also .. i have seen them.. aluminum cam gears...  

now.. a few tricks....

you will need to identify the threads in the end of the cam nose... you will need a grade 8 threaded stud to thread all the way in till it bottoms out with enough threads to let you get above the cam sprocket hub with flat washers and nuts to pull it in... let me tell you .. if you think its hard pulling it off..  this is harder...

the last one i did .. i could not find the exact stud.. and it was a holiday and i was 100 miles from my tool box..  i tried and managed to pull the threads from the end of the cam nose... so i cheated...  i had rented from the parts store... a harmonic damper installer... the smallest size thread was a 7/16-20... so i went from what was probably a 10MMx1.5 pitch to 7/16-20.. since 7/16 is like 11MM its the right size to run a tap in if you keep backing it out to clear the chips when it gets tight..  this allowed me to use the harmonic damper installer to drive the cam sprocket on easily...  well not that easily.. but it went on...

another thing...    use a red sharpie to mark the gear teeth on either side of the dot... /\./\   so you can be sure that it lines up with the dot at the top of the crank gear..

now comes the FUN... because these gears are bevel cut... when you drive them in.. you have to turn one gear or the other as you turn..  or you will either crack the new fiberglass gear.. or rip the teeth right off it..

i used a stack of big flat washer with the harmonic damper installer to drive the crank gear on... big as in they fit over the end of the crank snout...

use extreme care...  

some of the brands of replacement crank gears are NOT drilled with holes to get them back off... one on.. you are cooked...  the cam sprockets are impossible to get off without breaking it...  

oh.. and the rubber gasket can be slipped around the oil pump and pickup...

the pan gaskets come with threaded plastic studs.. 4 of them. screw them into the bottom of the block at the corners...   push the pan gasket up onto them.. it will hold the gasket in place and then hold the pan up while you start the bolts..  

waynep71222 waynep71222
Guru | Posts: 825 | Joined: 03/12
Posted: 09/22/12
04:23 PM

oh.. that bearing splitter is a harbor freight item..



14 Piece Gear Puller Set  Item #30305





this is at autozone in the loan a tool section...

OEM/Harmonic Balancer Installer  Part Number: 27144

 

waynep71222 waynep71222
Guru | Posts: 825 | Joined: 03/12
Posted: 09/22/12
04:31 PM




so.. back to the first question from my side..

does the distributer rotor spin when the engine is cranked.???

yes or no...  

darren68 darren68
New User | Posts: 26 | Joined: 11/11
Posted: 09/24/12
02:26 PM

Yes the rotor does turn and the distributer has 3 wires going to it. color of wires unknown because someone painted over them.  
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darren68 darren68
New User | Posts: 26 | Joined: 11/11
Posted: 09/24/12
02:36 PM

The ignition box also does say Motorcraft Duraspark  
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waynep71222 waynep71222
Guru | Posts: 825 | Joined: 03/12
Posted: 09/24/12
04:04 PM

you have some trouble shooting to ***

this is one way... to reduce buying parts up front...

you have about a 60 percent change the module is bad...  please examine the module where the wires go under the side... the plastic strain relief has different colors to identify which module... blue is the most popular...

do you have a circuit tester/test light...  find the positive terminal on the ignition coil... shove the probe of the circuit tester into that...   ground the clip...   turn the key to the ON position.. do you get any light at all???? you should ... have somebody crank the engine...   the light should stay on or get brighter... either on or brighter is good...

`````````````````````````````

since this is a duraspark...  you will either have a square coil. or a round coil...  unplug the connector on the coil... stick your probe into the negative side of the UNPLUGGED connector with the wire in it..   hook the other clip to the positive side of the coil connector the positive side...

have somebody crank the engine... if the light flashes... when you are cranking and hooked to the wires removed from the coil... you probably have a bad coil...    does happen.. .

the flashing while cranking test light shows you that the power is at the coil.. and that the module is making and breaking the ground connection to make the coil create high voltage sparks..
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

next... with the digital volt meter...   unplug 3 wire connector to the distributer...    there are 3 terminals inside it... like this....   | __  |     set the meter to 2K ohms..  2,000 ohms scale...   measure the two outside terminals... this would be the orange and the purple wire if you could see it...   usually around 980 ohms.. but somewhere between 500 and 1,500 ohms is expected...

before disconnecting from these... turn your meter to the 2 volt AC or 20 volt AC setting.. while touching the same terminals.. have somebody crank the engine...  you should see really close to 1.0 volts AC while cranking...

if you pass the resistance test.. but fail the voltage test...  replace the reluctor on the shaft..  under 10 bucks...

if you fail the resistance test... replace the pick up coil .. and the reluctor...  reluctors do wear out..  
its complicated but they *** they fail to retain enough magnetic field when rusty.. worn.. sandblasted. spray cleaned... this reduces the magnetic field that passes through the pick up coil windings... if you don't make close to 1.0 volts AC.. you will not have enough signal to turn the power transistor on inside the module and the system won't work...

you can also test the same wires at the 4 prong terminal at the module...  orange and red...

you might.. but it rarely happens.. check the center wire of the 3 on the distributer  with your ohm meter set to 200 ohms... between that wire and ground.. should be the same as when you touch your probes together..  that is the ground for the ignition module...  its actually grounded through the screw that holds the wiring to the pickup coil down inside  the distributer..


that completes the duraspark ignition testing except for the module...

removing the ignition module.. there are 3 screws that hold it in place.. sometimes through the front.. sometimes through the back side...   almost any chain parts store can test the duraspark module...   they are about 25 bucks...  you will have to MATCH the color of the grommet/strain relief...

if you get in trouble.. check messages above to the left of where you log out at...  

darren68 darren68
New User | Posts: 26 | Joined: 11/11
Posted: 09/25/12
12:03 PM

Testing the coil wires with the circuit tester, plugged in to coil, tester probe in positive side and clip to ground I get good light but the light dims when cranking the engine. Testing with coil unplugged, probe in the negative side of coil plug and clip on positive side of coil, there is no light.  
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darren68 darren68
New User | Posts: 26 | Joined: 11/11
Posted: 09/25/12
12:08 PM

No light when cranking that is. Testing the 3 wires to the distributer gave proper voltage.  
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waynep71222 waynep71222
Guru | Posts: 825 | Joined: 03/12
Posted: 09/25/12
02:52 PM

find the module... take it to the auto parts store...

have them test it ... if it passes.. have them run the test 6 times in a row...  that gets it hot enough to see if it will fail when it heats up...

have them match it...

if its a module about the size of a snickers candy bar... thats a TFI module and it will need heat sink paste behind it.. or it will fail again...


the normal duraspark with 2 grommets is available in almost every parts store..

it it's a brown or yellow grommet. where the wires come out..  those could have other issues...

is this engine equipped with a CARB...   NOT fuel injection.  

waynep71222 waynep71222
Guru | Posts: 825 | Joined: 03/12
Posted: 09/25/12
02:57 PM

note the blue strain relief...    different colors modules are not easily inter changeable..




this is an F102 at az...

red is run power input also shared with coil positive

white is 10 degree crank retard input from starter relay I terminal.. only when cranking...

on the 4 pin connector
green goes to the coil negative.
purple and orange go to the pick up coil
black goes to the ground connection in the distributer  

darren68 darren68
New User | Posts: 26 | Joined: 11/11
Posted: 09/25/12
04:28 PM

Yes it is carberated and that module in the pic you posted is the same as this with the blue strain relief. I will take it in tomorrow and see what happens. Thank you.  
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darren68 darren68
New User | Posts: 26 | Joined: 11/11
Posted: 09/26/12
08:49 PM

The module was bad. I replaced it and all is good. It is obvious that you know your Fords. Thanks again.  
Love my Chevy

waynep71222 waynep71222
Guru | Posts: 825 | Joined: 03/12
Posted: 09/26/12
10:25 PM

by the way... the ignition pick up coil resistance test and the AC voltage test when you spin the shaft..

work for any of the magnetic pick up ignition systems...

chrysler...   ford... gm...  honda...   resistance might change.. theory does not..


be sure to examine pick up coil magnets for cracks.. just look don't take the stack apart..

on small cap HEI... look at the center of the distributer shafts.. a small section of magnet is exposed.. if you find a crack... replace the distributer with a reman unit with the improved design reluctor...




this is what the replacement units look like...



cracks in the magnets or the reluctor create ghost waveforms.. cause random sparks from the electronic spark timing...  

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