Automotive Forums

OK, so I took the BMW and the Volvo out for short drives today.  It isnt really fair to compare the two, they are completely different cars.  

The BMW has great pick-up, cornering abilities and is a performance piece of machinery (hard to even call it a car!) I even hit some loose gravel while excellerating (sp?) and the car seemed to have hesitated for a second.  When I asked the salesman about it, he didn't even seem to notice at first then thought about it for a minute and said it was the computer telling the car to throttle back because the tires were grabbing the road at slightly different rates.  The car didn't want me to spin out! I was impressed, to say the least.  When I gave it some gas into the off ramp, the car seemed to have just hunkered down and grab the road better.  MAN, was that a fun drive!  My heart was racing a bit and even though I had a great time, I think the car would be just too much power for me - and I could see a whole lotta black and whites in my future!

The Volvo on the other hand, was a rich, easily handled car.  I just didn't want to go fast in it.  However, it was the automatic I took for the drive.  Don't get me wrong, I did put it through some paces, but it just doesn't handle at all like the BMW.  I actually got less feel of the road, but it just doesn't seem to be the kind of car that you would have to drive like that and still enjoy driving.  (OMG, I have turned into that old lady driver I used to make fun of when I was a kid!) I was very impressed with the Volvo and can see myself in that car for years to come (without too many black and whites in the rear view mirror!)  I am looking forward to your opinion on it.

So out of the two and for the money, right now I think the Volvo is more my speed.  It is about a $4,000 +/- (after selected options) difference in favor of the Volvo.  It seems to be the right amount of car for that kind of money.  Hubby is now talking about the Solara again too, and if it wasn't a ragtop (and if I hadn't driven cars I did today) I would have been ignorantly happy with it - darn!  But it IS $10,000 +/- less than the Volvo.  That is for the SLE fully loaded.  So we have to figure out how important the hardtop vs. money vs. safety etc... is to us.

Soooo, if you can, give me some insight on the Volvo that I can add to the Pro and Cons list I have started (preferrably in the Pro column so I can justify the money!)

Hope you had fun this weekend and I look forward to hearing from you.  Thanks Speed.

Leslie  

Your observations about the two cars' differences are, as far as I'm concerned, spot on.  The BMW is a driver's machine that costs more, and the Volvo is a laid back cruiser that costs less.  

Firstly both cars have "ESP," which stands for "electronic stability program."  I"m pretty sure that neither car actually uses that acronym--they all have their own name for the system.  Regardless, it's the culprit in the hesitation you experienced while encountering slippery gravel.  ESP is an ingenious system of accelerometers (they measure acceleration forces in all directions), wheel speed sensors, steering position sensors, yaw sensors, and more.  When you lose traction in a turn, whether because you've simply gone too fast around a corner or encountered unexpectedly reduced traction due to gravel or moisture, the sensors detect unexpected motions in the car, and apply individual brakes (sometimes one, sometimes two or three) to "steer" the car back onto the precieved intended path.  None of that makes any sense, so let's take an anecdotal example.  You're carving up a right-hand corner, maybe a highway entrance ramp, and you're moving pretty quickly.  Lawn sprinklers have made the pavement wet on a small patch, and at the speed you're going, you loose traction when you hit the moisture, and the car begins to slide sideways.  IN fact, it slides badly, with the rear end sliding the most, and the car begins to "fish tale," with the rear end sliding to the left (whilte turning right), thus threatening to spin-out.  The sensors mentioned above recognize this, and the ESP system applies a few quick pulses to the left-hand brakes, thus slowing the left-hand wheels, and preventing the leftward "fishtail."  The system also interrupts the sparkplug ignition, thus canceling your heavy throttle input, and making sure that the situation is under control before restoring full power.  This happens in 1 or 2 seconds, long before the car is actaully sliding noticably, and all you notice is a bit of a thump (from the brakes making a few quick correcting pulses) and a moment of hesitation from the engine.  Brilliant, safe, and no fun what so ever.  That's why the BMW (and maybe th Volvo) has a button on the dash that turns of the system should you deliberately want to slide the car around corners.  

So, the volvo has that system too, but you didn't notice it because you weren't inspired to fling it around corners the way you were in the BMW.  And that just about sums up the character difference between the two cars.  

The BMW is a brilliant machine with good power (did you test drive the 328 or 335?), fantastic handling, and a driver interface (steering, brakes, clutch, etc) that makes the driver feel as though he or she were part of the machine. Part of the reason behind BMW's handling and performance superiority is Rear wheel drive (RWD).  RWD has two distinct advantages.  Firstly, the weight of the transaxle (The engine, transmission, and drive axles) is evenly distributed from front to back.  On the BMW, the long inline 6 cylinder engine block is mounted such that much of its bulk is behind the front axle line.  The heavy transmission is extends even further aft, to right about where the shifter is.  Then a long drive shaft tube extends all the way to the rear wheels, and connects to a very heavy differential and drive axles for the rear wheels.  The result is 50/50% weight distribution front to rear, and thus, perfect handling balance in corners.  Secondly, in a RWD car, the front and rear tires share the duties of acceleration and turning.  Aside from braking, the front wheels are only responsible for steering, and the rears are only responsible for accelerating.  In a high-performance situation, a you can goose the accelerator mid-turn and all 4 tires take up the duty of keeping your cornering line and accelerating at the same time. This is why your drive in the BMW felt so spirited--by turning and accelerating at the same time, you were utilizing the maximum traction available from all 4 wheels.  

In a front drive car, like the Volvo, the engine, transmission, and axles are all mounted directly atop the front axle-line.  Weight distribution is usually something like 60/40 front to rear.  In addition, when you're cornering hard, you're putting more strain on the front wheels because of the extra weight up there, and by adding acceleration, you're likely to excede the front tires' adhesive limits.  THis is not dangerous--in fact, it can actaully be safer, as a front-drive car will almost always loose traction on the front first in a corner, and thus only require a quick reduction of throttle input.  A rear drive car can lose traction at either end, and a loss of rear-end traction can be very scary.  But both cars have ESP, so that's not really an issue.

Those fundamentals explain the majority of the driving experience difference between the two cars.  The BMW is also a superbly engineered maching designed to maximize the front engine/rear drive layout advantage.  The Volvo, however, shares suspension componentry with the Mazda3, Mazda5, and European Ford Focus.  All of those cars are the best handling cars in their class, but Volvo's taken that chassis, and added nearly 1000lb of weight (convertibles are heavier than sedans), and then softened it up a bit to fit Volvo's premium, refined status.  The result is a perfectly capable car for 7/10ths driving, but not a very exciting one, and certainly not a 10/10ths machine.  

But then, as you mentioned, you're excited by performance, but not in love with it.  What should you buy?  Heck, I donno.  Buy a Solara, and then send me the $15K you would have spent on the Bimmer  

But seriously, there are other aspects about the BMW that I find more attractive than the Volvo.  Firstly, while it's certainly fun to drive fast, its no-nonsense, direct driver interface makes slow driving all the more pleasurable and precise.  And just yesterday, while visiting my favorite burger joint in northern suburban chicago, I parked next to a silver BMW 328i convertible, and it was HOT....and I mean HOT looking. And then there's the 4 yr 50K miles free maintenance program, which COULD be very beneficial, since i'm pretty sure both the BMW and Volvo require expensive synthetic oil changes.  Then again, my friend's 2004 325 only requires an oil change once a year or so.  Is it worth an extra $4000?  Hmmm...for me, yes.  But I can't afford that sorta stuff right now, so it's merely academic for me.  And to tell you the truth, if I were in the market for a sub $40K convertible, I'd head right for the VW eos.  It's not that I think the Volvo is a bad car.  My experience with my friend's dad's (which I haven't been able to drive again yet) is pretty much the same as yours.  It's solid, comfortable, sensible, a bit rich in its interior execution, and perfectly adequate for the occasional hustle.  But I honestly don't think it's worth $40K.   For that money, you could buy an S40 wagon with all-wheel-drive and every conceivable option, and STILL spend less.  Slapping a hardtop convertible roof onto a very-good $30K S40 does not make it an excellent $40K car.  

But I'm waxing philosophical now.  As you said, you WILL be happy for years to come in a perfectly comfortable, competent, and stylish C70.  But I suspect you'll enjoy driving more in a BMW.  

But I'd like to reintroduce the idea of the VW EOS.  It's in a similar price-bracket to a loaded Solara, and while not as big, it's probably a better car in general.  I don't have any reliability stats on hand, and the Jetta-based VWs have had a checkered past.  But barring that, a VW eos is just as capable as the Volvo, has a more ingenious folding hard-top design, has a more interestingly designed interior, is nearly as peppy with the base engine, and is quite a bit faster with the optional (and delicious) 3.2L VR6 engine.  Specifically, I'm impressed with the way VW incorporates a fully functional sliding sunroof into its hardtop, which then folds away with the hardtop in an intricate ballet.  I've also always been a fan of VW's brilliant deep blue and deep red interior night-time lighting.   Try driving one, and see what you think.

I almost forgot: yes I had a good weekend.  I just got back from a fantastic concert at "celtic fest" in downtown Chicago.  I you're into latin music, or even if you're not, you MUST check out Salsa Celtica--a band that blends superlative talent with an indescribably brilliant blend of salsa and celtic traditions.  Must be heard to be believed.  Anyway, I'll be taking a ride in a C70 in the next few days.  

Well Speed, everything you say about the BMW is true.  Driving interface, power etc...  and it is Fun!  It is a beautiful piece of machinery and I love it.  However, do I love it for $4000 more than the Volvo???  I don't know.  I guess that question should be posed to my husband.  And where I live, the BMW is a very common car.  It would be nice to have something that stands out of the 'Bimmer Crowd'.  You were perfectly clear when you said that it is a HOT car, I agree wholeheartedly.  I think after driving the BMW (328 by the way) manual transmission, it is my favorite.  (talk about wavering!)

The Eos, as you mention, is right in the ballpark as far as price goes.  It is however, after the options I want and top of the line Eos, only $550 less than the Volvo.  And I know that they have improved upon the electrical problems known to VW, but I just can't seem to get that out of my mind.  VW just equates with electrical problems to me.  The glass (or whatever type) roof is a cool design feature, backseat area looks minimal.  As far as the look of the car, it is by no means ugly but it just doesn't scream 'top of the line'.  To me, it kinda has that economy look and you just don't think 'luxury car' when you hear the name VW Eos.  For the money, I wanna think Luxury with a capital L!  A N D  When we went to our local dealer to take a look and find out about it, the salesperson was less than enthusiastic and said "I only have one other one on the lot and its way in the back, stripped down model, no options'. Period.  Didn't offer to show it even though Jim expressed an interest in it.  "It's way in the back of the lot" was the response we got.  Jim and I agree, we will NOT be spending money at that dealership.

Now, we get down to the Volvo.  By the way, is your friend's C70 a manual or automatic?  I have been looking around here and can't find a manual tranny or a trim style comparable that has a manual.  Any suggestions?  Not sure what body style of Volvo the C70 is based upon.  I hate to commit to the Volvo without driving the manual.  I am also curious if it will be as nice on the trips to Tahoe as I am sure the BMW would be.  I like the idea of having something that is a bit different than all the other "Marin Moms".  If they aren't driving a BMW then you catch them on the phone in their Cadillac SUV's (aaarrrrggg!).  Personally, I have outgrown the SUV stage (I had a Bronco that was HUGE!) and refuse to go back to that type of gas hogging machine again, but boy it was fun at the time.  I am anxious to hear about the C70 drive you are planning to make.

Soooo, knowing that I don't know how much Jim is willing to spend on a new car, I want the BMW because its fun and rear wheel drive (Tahoe trips) and the Volvo for the luxury and uniqueness here.

Glad you had fun last weekend, and no I have never heard of Salsa-Celtic music.  I can imagine it would be an interesting blend of cultures though.  A good friend of ours goes to Chicago to visit his family quite often, and has a blast there.  I have been there once on a business trip and couldn't - and still can't - get over the people there.  For such a large area, it was the most family oriented place I visited in my 5 city tour.  People are just incredibly nice.

Anyway, have fun with the vicarious test drive for me and let me know what you think of the Volvo.  In the interim, I will try to run down a body style comparable to the C70 with a manual tranny.

Thanks for your help Speed.

Leslie  

I too have had numerous bad experiences at VW dealers.  I donno what it is, but it seems to be small local dealers that are always the worst.  I remember a few years ago, when I was helping my parents search for a VW passat, and the rather unkind salesman had me walk in 95 degree heat to their remote lot accross a busy street with no pedestrian light or walkway, and peer in the windows of 20 different cars scattered throughout the huge lot looking for the right equipment.  They lost our business, and I've steered everyone who will listen away from them, as that's just one of several bad experiences I've had there.  

Anyway, the C70, as I mentioned, is based on the S40.  THe C70 is basically a loaded S40 with a convertible roof and the uplevel "T5" engine.  Manual transmission S40s are probably much more abundant than manual C70s, so you shouldn't have a problem finding one to test drive.  But you should be aware that a regular front-drive S40 with the "T5" turbo engine will be significantly lighter weight than the C70, so it'll surely feel faster.  To replicate the experience most precisely, try finding an All-wheel-drive T5 with a stick.  The added weight and frictional drag of the AWD system will replicate the extra weight of the C70, and give you a better idea of the acceleration potential.  

In further new, I finally got to drive the C70 again.  We took it on a couple-hour cruise on highways and on some tisty roads.  I must say, I was pretty impressed, more so than my initial impressions when he first got the car.  I was reminded of the truly phenominal chassis (shared with the S40 and Mazda3) that, even though it's burdened with quite a bit of extra weight, still handles reasonably sharply up to a point.  It's only when you are really hauling through a highway entrance or exit ramp, tires squeeling, rear end begging to loose traction, and ESP warning lights flashing, that you realize how much better the BMW is.  But at anything below tire-squeeling speed, it's actaully very responsible, with excellent, direct, accurate steering, nimble chassis response, and respectable grip.

My friend's is a 5 speed automatic, so I can't speed for the 6 speed manual.  But the 5 speed is adequate.  It's smart and smooth, but its gears are rather tall, which means that in some circumstances, if you really plant it, it chooses a gear that's too tall, and acceleration doesn't seem as brisk as it should be with that sort of turbo power.  But in most situations its fine, and if you really wanna terrorize your neigbors, flooring it from a stopsign will indeed give you decent wheelspin all the way accross the intersection, at least on the slippery weather-proofed asphalt in the chicago suburbs.  

I only had a few complains.  For me, the steering wheels is big and clunky feeling, and the rim is just too darn thick.  A heafty seem is unpleasant, and the stlyish wood or metal-look platic on the top/inner portion of the steering wheel is uncomfortable.  Classic style over function, and something that would never EVER fly in a BMW.  The chassis, while generally solid and quiet, can get surprisingly noisy and wiggly on choppy pavement, especially, if you're cornering at the same time.  I didn't expect it from a brand new volvo based on a stiff chassis, but it just goes to show what a structural disadvantage convertibles have.  I remember my friend's dad's previous BMW convertible (not the new one) felt more solid, and even if it wiggled a bit, never felt like it was gonna shake itself to bits.

Other than those relatively minor gripes, I think the C70 is a capable, stylish, unique, and well-made car.  Drive it again, and find some fun roads.  You might be surprized how quickly it responds to steering input at high speed. The BMW will always be better.  But as you said, is it $4000 better?  For those who can afford an extra $4000 without even thinking about it, then sure.  For the rest of the world, it's only worth it if high performance is at the top of your list of must-haves.

BTW, I'm quite pleased that you PREFER a manual transmission.  It's rare these days, and I wish more people understood the advantages in both performance and enhanced drive skill that comes with driving a manual.  

What is up with VW dealerships anyway?!?  I got the impression that we weren't even good enough to take up the salesmans time.  Yikes!  If everyone gets treated like that, they must have a hellova product to still be able to sell them!  BTW, this was no small dealership, it was quite large with at least a dozen salesmen buzzing around the floor.

So the S40 or an AWD (any trim or something similar?) with a Turbo V5 right?  Got an e-mail from the Volvo internet sales dept with a phone number.  I explained what I was looking to test drive and why and she said she would have to look into it and shoot me an e-mail back.  You have just answered a question in a few minutes that she should have been able to answer in her 8 hour shift.  Thank you Speed.

As far as tire squeeling speed, that may be just reserved for after arguments with the 'just teen' teenager I have,  Those are the times I wish I didn't have the Element.  It's just not the same seeing a toaster burn rubber!  I don't think the tire squeeling feature will be that much of a bonus to me.  Hmmm, but just thinking that I could do it makes me smile!

I will contact the dealer tomorrow and see if they have a manual with the above mentioned specs that I can take for a drive.  It is in Corte Madera - just north of SF - and there is no shortage of twisty roads there.

About the manual transmission, after my drive in the Mustang and more impressively, the BMW, I am glad I made the decision to get a manual versus auto.  I guess I have really missed the feeling I get when I am "actively participating" in the driving experience.  I feel like I have more control over what happens. (more than likely all in my head - but it is in MY head and therefore I think it )  Besides I always drove a stick until I had those pesky children!  Hey, a thought just occurred to me, got rid of a stick because I had children and 13 years later I find myself buying a stick because of the children.  Ironic huh!

I will get back here after I take a drive.  Talk with you soon.  Have a good weekend.

Leslie