Found this on Google.
# 1 for June 6, 2003
Complaints.com received the following on June 5, 2003:
From: Brenda Doyle [email@example.com]
RE: Larry Miller Toyota, West Bell Rd., Peoria, AZ - description of Sequoia negotiation
We have been in the market for a SUV. On May 12th we looked on the Larry Miller Toyota website. One of the things that stood out was the representation “no high pressure sales tactics, tricks or games, just clear information to help with your purchase decision.”
On May 13, 2003 we came to Larry Miller Toyota on West Bell Road in Peoria, Arizona. Vince Harguindegy greeted us. We told him we wanted to look at the Sequoia. We took one for a test drive.
During our conversations with Vince we made it clear that we would not pay the full term of a contract, that we always pay our vehicles off early. We expressed that the amount of the vehicle was our concern, not payments. We let him know we wanted a video system like our van now, and he said it was much cheaper to do that later on our own and would have a better system. We also wanted leather, but the color we liked did not have it, but Vince told us he was sure they could throw that into the deal.
The sticker price on this vehicle was $38,628. It was a little higher than we wanted to pay (especially since the video system would be added into the final cost), but if we could get what we wanted on our vehicle, then we could make a deal.
While we were waiting for credit checks and our trade in to be valued, we had several conversations with Vince, one concerning leases. He began telling us the value of a lease, tax write offs, etc. I asked specifically if there was a fee for a lease. His response was no. Then I told him that I heard there was an extra payoff at the end and he said no – that leases now days were different than before. I brought up mileage, which he did say he thought there was a mileage clause, about 12,000 a year. The lease conversation was then dropped.
We then began the “haggling.” We knew what we wanted to pay. We were okay with the sticker price of the Sequoia if we received $10,000 for our van. When they offered us $6,800 we told them no – that we would sell it ourselves and come back then. They tried to get us to answer if the payment was okay. We told them it didn’t matter what the payment was because we would pay it off in a year or so. What mattered to us was the bottom line. How much was the vehicle going to cost us?
Vince left and came back with Dominic Inness. Dominic asked us what we thought we could get for our van and we told him that we thought we could get $10,000 easily. He told us to wait a minute and he would be back.
Dominic came back with a paper that showed payments. We told him it didn’t matter what the payments were, that we would be paying if off early. The only thing we cared about was the price of their vehicle and what we would get from our trade. He then asked if we would be interested in a lease.
I then told him that we knew nothing about a lease and that Vince had shared some. He then began by telling us it was like “cheating” the bank. You had more monies going to the principle than if you had a regular conventional loan. I again asked the question about any fees and he said there were none. I also asked about paying it off early and he told us that would be great that we would be “ahead of the game”. I asked again if there were any hidden charges, and he said no. I then asked if it was that great why didn’t everyone do it. He said that not everyone could, only those with an excellent credit rating.
He said that with everything Vince had told him, we probably could qualify for a lease with our credit.
He told us that they would give us $10,000 for our van and then told us what the payment would be. (Again, the payment didn’t matter; it was the bottom line that we cared about.)
We had forgotten about the prior leather discussion we had with Vince and asked about that real quick. We wanted to make sure we were talking about the same deal Vince told us about. Dominc came back out and said, it we throw in the leather and give you $10,000 for your trade, do we have a deal? We agreed and shook hands.
He then said “we are getting tanked on this vehicle, and wouldn’t make anything on this deal.”
Jim and I responded to that – they have to be making something.
It was now after 10:00. My kids had school the next day and we were watching cleaning people all around. We were very sensitive to the lateness of the hour and even asked if we should come back tomorrow. They told us no that they do this all the time.
It was after 10:00 when we then began to do the paperwork. During that time I again continued to ask about the lease. Again I was *** it was a great way to go and that we would be ahead of the game. We did sign papers, but rushed through them because of the hour. The only thing that man did was point out where our $10,000 for our trade went. I also asked about the price on the top line, which was more than what the sticker price was, and was told it was the way lease agreements read, they added everything on the top and that was why it was different.
I also asked about the number $17,000 on the bottom and was told that was the amount the vehicle would be worth no matter what at the end of the contract. That if we went in to trade it, it would be at least that amount. So where we lost on the blue book for our van, we would not lose on this vehicle.
Jim and I, as well as our 17-year-old son Matt, were there through all the conversations. Our youngest two were there during some of the conversations.
We left with the Sequoia.
The next day we had an all day field trip, but stopped back by with the title to the trade and scheduled the leather to be installed.
We scheduled for the next morning. They had the Sequoia for 2 days.
I was uneasy about the lease situation still and tried to make sense of the paperwork. It didn’t make sense to me – according to what everyone had said.
Jim went back to the dealership, but Vince was not in. Jim began to question the man that was there about the contract. He The told Jim that we would be responsible for all 59 payments, that there was a fee for the lease and that at the end, we had to pay an additional $17,000 if we wanted to keep the vehicle. He asked Jim – “you want to keep the vehicle?”
When Jim told him that was not what we were told, he said that we had to speak with Vince. Vince was not there that day. Jim called Vince the next day and left a message, but received no call back. He then called again the next day and got Vince on the phone. Jim asked Vince to set up a meeting with the General Manager. Vince told him that he was gone for a wedding so we had to wait until he was back in town. We scheduled a meeting for Tuesday the 27th, the day after the Memorial Day weekend. It was now two weeks.
During this whole time we were sick about how deceitful the representatives were. Everything they *** us of and how they explained things, were not correct.
We showed up for our 10:00 meeting a few minutes early. Vince greeted us. We then began to share some of our concerns and he told us that the information on a lease form is very different than a regular purchase and that he would bring us the information to show us how it works out how they explained it to us that night.
We waited for ½ hour before we were approached by A.J. Davey and Bob Brawdy. They brought us back in the office and we began to explain our situation.
They told us the “deal” would not be renegotiated. (Although they had already renegotiated without us when they orally told us what the deal was and what was actually put on paper.)
He told us “you are businessmen and this is how business works”. We told him that we never do business in this way. We told him that we relied on the expertise of his representatives and he told us we shouldn’t have done that. He told us there are always manipulations of numbers. He also told us that they would not have given us $10,000 for our van because they would have lost on the deal. We told him that they had to have room on their price, or to have just told us they couldn’t get us $10,000. He said if they told us that, we would have left and the deal would have fallen through. So I asked him “it is okay to lie”. He smirked and said this is business.
I told him that both Vince and Dominic knew we wanted to keep this vehicle and that the price of payment was something we never haggled over. He said he wasn’t there to have heard the whole thing, only what they heard from their people and what they hear now from us.
They had to come out on the van – and although they said they would give us $10,000 – because they didn’t get 10,000 they had to find a way to make that up.
We basically should be pleased with the caliber of vehicle we have and although they are charging us over the sticker price and not giving us anything for our trade, we should be okay with that because we signed these papers.
He told us he would change this into a purchase right then. We were excited about that until he told us, that we would have to do the same deal – pay more than the sticker and lose the entire value of our trade.
We tried to ask for them to give us the sticker, minus our $10,000 and we would even pay for the leather. He told us no, they were not going to renegotiate the deal.
He did tell us we could buy our old van back. It was out on the lot and if we thought we could get more then them, we could buy it back and try.
We asked who was above Davey and were told he was the top.
Vince walked us out and told us that the person who knew how to work the machine to show how the lease worked was not there, but that he would have him print out the paperwork and get it to us, to show us that what they told us really was that way. (We have yet to receive that).
I then tried to find your address on the Internet, but I got back to this dealership. I had a response in one hour, but it was because they thought that I wanted to buy a vehicle.
I asked for your address and was told no one knew what it was and that I could check the Internet, to leave out the dash after Miller and it should bring me to Utah.
I tried to e-mail to that site, and no one has responded at all.
I finally called the Peoria dealership again to ask for someone who could give me a number or address to you in Utah and the girl told me that she didn’t know and put me on hold for a long time. Finally, Rich Macero came on the phone and asked who I was. I told him and asked him who he was. He told me he was a manager there. I told him that we were told that Davey was the head person and he said that was not true, that John Ellegard was the General Manager, but was there something he could do to help.
He was the first one that was kind. I shared our story and he asked why they offered us a lease if we wanted to keep the vehicle. I told him that they told us about the tax write off and that more money would go to principle than a conventional loan. He asked what I would want to settle this. I told him the same thing, their sticker, our $10,000 for the van and that we would even pay for the leather. He told me that he would talk with Davey when he got there at 3:00 today and then with John the following ***
On Friday the 29th I called back to talk with Mr. Macero. His tone was totally different from yesterday and said that he talked with A.J. Davey who told him they were not renegotiating this deal. That was it. I asked about Mr. Ellegard, and he told me that he was already gone today but would be in tomorrow at about 10:30. I thanked him and hung up.
On Saturday, Jim went down to the dealership. It was packed with people. Jim met Mr. Ellegard who told him that he doesn’t talk with customers on Saturday, that if he wanted to come back on Monday, he would talk with him then.
Monday, June 2, Jim was at the dealership at 8:00. Mr. Ellegard told him that since we didn’t negotiate the price of their vehicle, that they had every right to raise it even if they didn’t tell us. We should have made sure that they didn’t. It is very common to raise the cost of their vehicle since we wanted more for our van. He said that when Dominic said they would throw in the cost of the leather, they don’t do that, so he adjusted the price again to compensate that. Gave us $7,000 for our van, added the $3,000 and the leather to the price of the vehicle. He then said that this was “a month old” (it was just short of 3 weeks) and they won’t renegotiate after that length of time. Jim explained how we have waited because of his people asking us to or telling us we had to. He was arrogant and wouldn’t even let Jim finish speaking. He told Jim he didn’t care to “hear his whole story”. He did offer to let Jim buy back our old van.
We have attempted to contact someone over the dealership here, but to no avail. We have filed a complaint with Toyota, but the response came back from Larry Miller Toyota "our position has not changed."
We want to make sure no one else has this same situation occur to them.
Jim and Brenda